Heads up with Erik Seidel

Erik Seidel in his FullTiltPoker jersey

Erik Seidel defines consistency. While his calm, cool, and collected style might not woo the television cameras, his long-term results are nothing short of brilliant. With nearly $5 million in tournament poker winnings over his 17-year poker career, Seidel ranks 10th on the all-time World Series of Poker money list. He just came off one of his most successful years, making four final tables at the 2005 World Series of Poker and putting $752,235 in his pocket. A true no-limit and pot-limit player, he added his seventh World Series championship bracelet this year, outlasting 1,403 players to win the $2,000 no-limit hold'em event.



Erik, a longtime competitive gamer and former backgammon champion, is known by some for all the wrong reasons. He was the young buck immortalized in Rounders against whom Johnny Chan smooth-called a straight down to the river at the final table of the 1988 World Series to win the championship. While that amazing heads-up confrontation was served up to the masses in a film seen by millions, Erik was just warming up.



Pick any large tournament, and you're liable to see Erik Seidel deep in the event with a mountain of chips. He has cashed in more than 20 major events in the last two years alone. He is highly respected by his peers for his thoughtful approach and ability to adapt his game. He got his payback against Chan, beating him heads up for a no-limit hold'em bracelet in 2001. He even remains true to his solid and successful formula when playing low-limit poker 10 hours a week at FullTiltPoker as one of the site's torchbearers.



Card Player spoke with Erik about his life as a competitive gamer and the evolution of the game he has hung his hat on for nearly two decades.



You grew up as a winning backgammon player. How did you get into the game?

I lived on the Upper West Side of New York until I was about 30. There was a club on 100th Street and Broadway called Chess City, and my brother and I would go in there to goof around when we were very young. I really started playing backgammon when I was in the 10th or 11th grade. I played with kids from my high school and was already ahead of them since I was able to watch many good players at Chess City. Chess City became the Game Room and changed locations to 75th Street and Broadway. I began going there regularly to play backgammon. At the Game Room, I got to meet some of the top backgammon players who would occasionally drop in. I got to know the likes of Paul Magriel, Roger Low, Lynn Goldsmith, and Fran Goldfarb, and they, especially X-22 (Paul Magriel), were a big influence on me as a backgammon player. Magriel was incredibly generous. I was just some random kid and he had this incredible enthusiasm about backgammon. He would help me out, play games and matches with me, and show me columns he was writing for The New York Times. Literally, I would call him at 2 o'clock in the morning and we would go over matches.

When did you become a competitive player who traveled on the backgammon circuit playing for high stakes?

I was still a teenager. When I was 18 or 19, I went to Aruba and won a large backgammon tournament. For about eight or nine years, I played backgammon for a living and traveled around on the circuit.



How and when did you make the transition from backgammon to poker?

I was playing backgammon for a living at the Mayfair Club. At that time, the Mayfair was the center of the backgammon world. There were brilliant players there all the time, and it was a great place to learn and develop. I didn't finish college, so lots of my education came from the people there.



Eventually, the Mayfair became a poker club. I remember going out to Vegas for a backgammon tournament. The tournament was at the Dunes and there was a ton of poker at the Dunes during that time. I played some $1-$2, and by some incredible miracle, I won. I was totally clueless, but I got excited about playing. I went back to the Mayfair, where there were a few very good poker players, and we started playing no-limit hold'emheads-up matches with backgammon chips. Very quickly, it grew into a real game.

You said being a games player is one of the things that attracted you to poker. What makes you a competitive games player?

I don't know, probably since I couldn't do anything else (laughing). I loved backgammon. I loved playing, the environment, traveling, and meeting people. For me, it was an opportunity to see so many places, and there were so many sharp, interesting people who played, many of whom are now poker players. It's nice that X-22, Mike Carson, Jason Lester, Billy Horan, and a few others are all in the poker arena now. They are a group that I will always root for, because I learned so much from all these guys.

So, you moved from the backgammon board to Wall Street and then on to poker?

Yeah. There were a couple of backgammon players who brought me up to trade government mortgages on Wall Street in about 1985. It was a strange environment for me. I was used to being on my own. This was the first time I had a boss and people looking over my shoulder. I also had to dress up in a suit every day. They would get ticked off if I didn't bring a jacket into the office. Eventually, I left Paine Webber and was trading options on Wall Street. Then, the crash came in 1987 and I got knocked out, so I went back to trying to play poker and make a living at that.

In those early days of playing poker, from about 1985 to 1987, what games were you playing and who were you playing against?

We were playing $25-$50 no-limit, and we would settle for half at the end of the night. There were some great players in that game, including Dan Harrington, Jay Heimowitz, Howard Lederer, Noli Franciso, Steve Z., and Billy Horan.

Erik Seidel (right) in action in this year's Legends of Poker championship event

Do any of these great players stand out as a leading mentor or someone who helped you develop your game?

There were a few people. Howard Lederer was a good friend, and still is. He would always discuss strategy and hands. Billy Horan – one of the top no-limit players in our game, and I think in the world – and I would always discuss our play. Noli, who is such a creative player, was also a huge influence on me.

So, the Mayfair to the 1988 World Series. How did this happen?

I lost my job on Wall Street, so I was just hanging out and playing. During the months leading up to the World Series, things started to click, and I went on a big winning streak.



My game was starting to gel and there were a few people in the game who told me I should consider going out to the World Series. Howard was one of them. And the ironic thing is that I sold off 70 percent of myself and Howard didn't buy a piece of me because, even though he was very supportive, he didn't think I was ready yet. That was the one disappointment for me. I really wanted him to have a piece, since he had been part of the reason I went out in the first place.

70 percent? How did it feel to be playing for only a sliver of yourself?

I was just thrilled to play. My wife reminds me that I used to dry-heave before tournaments. I was that nervous. I got very lucky the first day. After a few hours, it hit me, "Wow, I can play with these guys." It was very exciting to see that and think, "Holy s—-, I have a chance here!" Four days go by, and there I am at the final table.

With quite a group of players: T.J. Cloutier, Humberto Brenes, and Johnny Chan.

I think it was very helpful to me that I was such a novice. I had no clue who T.J. was. The only person I knew was Johnny Chan, and the only reason I knew him was that X-22 told me there was one player who was the best in the world by far, and that was Johnny Chan. So, it was very strange to be heads up against him.

Does it upset you that that heads-up match is now forever immortalized in the movie Rounders, and that lots of people who don't know much about poker know Erik Seidel as the guy Johnny Chan outplayed?

I have mixed feelings about that. I think it was a movie that helped bring a lot of people into the game, and in that sense I am happy to be a part of it. Obviously, I can't be that happy about the way it was portrayed. It is not really an issue for me, except that when I am online, lots of people bring it up.

What percentage of people who bring it up do you think are aware that you beat Johnny Chan heads up at the 2001 World Series and got your revenge?

(Laughing) Probably a very low percentage. It's been what, 10 years since Rounders? I think it's time for a sequel. The match in 2001 was an incredibly exciting one, and the crowd was great. There were lots of people there, betting one way or the other, and you could really feel the energy in the room. It was great for me, because there were lots of people in the room cheering me on. It's great to be part of a competition like that, which gets people taking sides and cheering back and forth. I went into that match very low in chips, and thought he was going to be 2-0 against me. I have a good record against the top players, and I thought here was one guy I was not going to be able to get even with. It was a very interesting match, and I had the best of the luck, which is necessary to overcome that type of deficit.

Did you come out of the 1988 World Series telling yourself that you were going to dedicate yourself to playing poker professionally?

Unfortunately, I didn't have the brash confidence that so many of the young players now have. I wish I had, because it would have been very helpful at that time, and would have allowed me to continue to play poker full time. I had a kid on the way, and was getting married a few weeks later. I was somewhat panicked and thought that I should take a job. So, I went back to work trading options with Roger Low, a former top backgammon player and brilliant options trader, the same person I worked with back in 1987. I couldn't resist working for him again. At that point, the poker games were drying up and I felt I couldn't make enough of a living relying on that. I would just come out for a week or two during the World Series and play in a few major events. It wasn't until about 10 years ago that I started playing poker full time. My wife, Ruah, and I decided to move out to Vegas. It was a five-year experiment, and here we are 10 years later. Now we are stuck (laughing).

In 1992, 1993, and 1994, you picked up a bracelet each year. that's not bad for a guy who was just playing poker a few weeks a year.

Yeah. I was working and playing in just a few World Series events. I am sorry now that I was working, because if I could have come out for the entire event, I might have a few more bracelets.

You've won bracelets in many different games. You mentioned earlier that one of the reasons you played in all of the games this year was to improve your skills in the games in which you are not very strong. What game would you say is your strongest,and what game is your weakest?

My strongest games are the pot-limit and no-limit games. It would be hard to pick which one I think I am better at. I feel comfortable playing both. The games I am weakest in are the stud events. I am to stud what Paris Hilton is to physics. I don't think I have ever cashed in a stud event. However, this year I came very close in all the stud events I played, which is very encouraging. I felt like I improved and actually had a chance this year.

Erik Seidel (right) and Mike Matusow are set to act on their blinds in this year's World Series of Poker.

In general, how do you think Erik Seidel has changed as a player from your initial appearance at the 1988 World Series to your blockbuster performance at the 2005 World Series, where you took down $750,000 and made four final tables?
Back in 1988, I had no clue. Back then, I was living off naked aggression and didn't know how to play shorthanded. After losing to Chan, I realized the importance of learning how to play shorthanded well. That was a bad time to be learning that lesson, but what could I do? I'm 10-1 in heads-up matches to win majors since then versus the WSOP millionaires. But, of course, it was a lesson learned too late.

What accomplishments are you most proud of in your pro poker career?

Beating a field of 1,400 players in the no-limit event this year was a thrill for me. I really didn't think I could get through that kind of field. I am also proud of being able to play with the top players and prove that I can win at that level. Years ago, we used to play a game with George the Greek. We were playing anywhere from $500-$1,000 no-limit to $2,000-$4,000. It was an enormous game. At that time, I didn't have much experience playing guys like Chip (Reese) and Doyle (Brunson). Also, the Chan win and the Chan loss are important, as they both represented huge breakthroughs in my game.

What skill set makes you an exceptional poker player?

Adaptability is my strong suit. Many people say you need a big ego to play the game. I disagree. I have gone through lots of periods when I didn't have much self-confidence in my game. I never really felt like I was much better than I was. I think this is a strength that someone like John Juanda also has. He is very self-critical, which is very helpful in terms of developing.

What players do you admire most in the poker industry?

There are a few. Chip Reese has been the man for as long as I can remember. Doyle also, how great is he? I think he's 71 now and still playing brilliantly. For the younger guys, Phil Ivey's intelligence, focus, and results are enviable. Talking tournaments, John Juanda just gets the job done. He is focused and thoughtful, and just has a great year every year.

Erik Seidel at a World Poker Tour final table

In Aces and Kings, Michael Kaplan called you a "chameleon," and said you "shade your strategy to suit your opponent." What makes your shades so lethal, and why is it that opinions about your play vary dramatically? Some call you a rock while others swear you are a maniac. There doesn't seem to be much middle ground.

That is kind of funny. I consider it a positive sign. I think that, quite honestly, most players play the way they play. Even some of the top players have a certain way they play, and it is very difficult for them to get out of those patterns. My thing is not to play the way I play, but to play in relation to the way my opponents are playing. To me, it is like being in a jazz ensemble, in which you are playing in coordination with the people who are playing around you. It is not about your solo.

You've been playing now for 17 years. How has the business of playing poker changed since the late 1980s?

The biggest change has been the merger of TV and poker. You now have people who are able to make their reputations based on their TV persona rather than skill. There is a lot of noise out there, and it is hard for people on the outside to know who the good players are. Even the players who are playing the tour get fooled by looking at short-term results, and think that whoever's had a great few months is the latest supergenius. Unless you are looking atlong-term results, at least five years, it is very difficult to determine how good somebody is. Throughout my years of playing tournaments, I've been fooled many times, thinking, "Wow, this guy must be playing great, he is one of the top players," and two years later he has disappeared. I think there is a lot of this going on right now. There are lots of players in the public eye who might not be able to maintain their results, and some reputations are built on rather flimsy results.

Do you think a partial reason for this is that luck plays an increasingly more important role as the size of these tournament fields gets larger and larger?

Yes. Luck is more of a factor. But the way these tournaments are structured is another reason. When you get to a World Poker Tour final table, they are trying to end the tournament in four hours. The blinds go up so fast that, at some point, a large portion of the skill is taken out of the game. That is what was so satisfying about the World Series this year. You had so many great players who had proven themselves over the years and were proving themselves all over again because the structures were good. When that much cash and notoriety are on the line, players should be given a chance to play and make good decisions rather than being forced to move in as soon as they get a half-decent hand because the blinds are so high.

As a tournament poker veteran, do you think with the proliferation of events that there is a need for an organization that represents the needs of all tournament poker players?

Yes, for sure. I think one of the problems we need to overcome is deciding who needs to be a part of this organization and how it should be structured. This is one thing that has hurt poker players, because we have been unable to organize and agree on how we should go about it. I think that so many players have become so enamored with the TV coverage that they are, in many cases, not looking after their own interests.

Are you against television displaying holecards?

Personally, I've never been comfortable with anyone seeing my cards. I don't even like people sitting behind me. I find it distracting. But that is not the issue. The main issue is why we are not being compensated for providing this type of entertainment. I believe that if we are going to be asked to show our holecards and provide entertainment to people, we should be compensated accordingly.



Right now, poker is the third-biggest televised sport behind NASCAR and the NFL. Look at the money that the guys are making in NASCAR and the NFL. There is an imbalance when you look at poker. If you are going to play the full tournament schedule now, it can cost more than $400,000. That is a lot of money. I don't care how well you play. There will be times when you go through periods of big losing streaks. Any kind of help players can get, through sponsorships and such, will make a big difference. We as players need to find a way to close this gap.

Why has Erik Seidel never written a strategy book, and what is your opinion of the proliferation of poker strategy books?
It is a Prisoner's Dilemma kind of thing. I could write a book, and I think it would do very well and help my reputation, but if I did it right, it would harm my chances and also make it more difficult for other players on the tour. There are enough people out there writing books. To me, it's something akin to being a magician and selling out all of the secrets that fellow magicians have worked on for years. There is something of a betrayal in writing a strategy book that will teach people to beat all of your friends and make their jobs more difficult.

Erik Seidel "shows 'em the money" after winning the $2,000 no-limit hold'em event at this year's World Series of Poker.

Talking about being a magician, my guess is that you aren't planning on pulling any disappearing acts anytime soon. You've already had a long and successful career as a poker player, but what's on the horizon for Erik Seidel?

Well, I would love to play for many more years. I feel very fortunate to be able to play a game that I really love and feel challenged by, and I hope I can continue to play at the top levels for a while longer. I would like to help contribute to the player community moving forward, working with the players so that we can see to it that we are paid in a way that is commensurate with other sports that are televised. I think poker still has a big future in front of it, and I'm very excited to see how the next few years go for all of us.

Playing his 'A' Game

With four final-table appearances and five total cashes at the 2005 World Series of Poker, Erik Seidel once again proved himself a masterful no-limit and pot-limit player.



Here is a look at his performance:



Finished Event Prize Money

First place $2,000 no-limit hold'em $611,795

Sixth place $1,500 no-limit hold'em $59,545

Eighth place $10,000 pot-limit Omaha $46,530

Ninth place $2,000 pot-limit Omaha $23,130

16th place $5,000 pot-limit hold'em $11,235

The Bracelets
With seven World Series of Poker bracelets and 20 World Series final-table appearances, Erik Seidel is in select company. Only five other players have won seven or more of poker's most coveted awards.



Here is a rundown of Erik's bling:
1992 $2,500 Limit Hold'em

1993 $2,500 Omaha eight-or-better

1994 $5,000 limit hold'em

1998 $5,000 deuce-to-seven draw

2001 $3,000 no-limit hold'em

2003 $1,500 pot-limit Omaha

2005 $2,000 no-limit hold'em