Tom Schneider is having one hell of a year. The man who took down two bracelets at the 2007
World Series of Poker and the event's player of the year honors knew his breakout was just around the corner. Schneider, a regular high-stakes mixed-game cash player, proved his skill by capturing the $2,500 Omaha/seven-card stud eight-or-better bracelet and the $1,000 seven-card stud eight-or-better bracelet and finishing fourth in the $2,500 H.O.R.S.E. event. And he didn't quit there. In the first major event after the
WSOP, the
World Poker Tour Legends of Poker, he continued to ride his hot streak, making another final table, this time finishing fourth. Over these two months, Schneider earned more than $600,000 and racked up 3,792
Card Player Player of the Year points, putting him in fourth place in this tight race.
Schneider started playing a variety of mixed card games at a young age. His acute card sense was further refined around the time he entered college to study finance. Then, he stumbled upon Doyle Brunson's
Super/System, which, he says, changed his entire view on poker. He began making trips to Vegas to play $10-$20 hold'em at the Stardust. He beat those games, and after several Arizona tribal casinos began offering poker in the early 1990s, his close proximity to lucrative games changed Tom's life.
Along the way, Schneider established an impressive business resume as a finance and CPA professional. His positions and challenges included revamping Ping golf company's accounting department as its controller, learning the value of integrity after working for a company that fell from grace during the $150 billion savings and loan crisis of the 1970s and '80s, working more than 80 hours a week preparing 10Ks and making bank presentations as Royal Grip's CFO during a turnaround period, and acting as president of Royal Precision, a 300-person, $30 million company that was profitable in seven of eight quarters under Schneider's eye.
Over time, Tom started to play more and more poker (and golf). The games were getting bigger and bigger in Arizona, and, finally, while acting as a part-time CFO for ProLink, he made the plunge into full-time poker.
With this pile of experience, the 47-year-old Schneider brings a unique and valuable perspective to the game. The lessons he learned from the boardroom, his salad days as a player, and life manifest themselves in his book,
I Won Too Much Money: Winning Wisdom From the Boardroom to the Poker Table. Tom continues to offer his wit and wisdom on a weekly podcast,
Beyond the Table and contributes poker blogs at Pokerati. Co-host Karridy Askenasy calls Schneider the Dr. Phil of poker. "I'm bald and overweight, so I have that going for me," Tom laughs. But, in all seriousness, his good nature, intelligence, and methodological, no-nonsense approach to the game make him one of poker's most brilliant minds.
Card Player caught up with Tom at his home away from home, the Arizona Country Club. Here, the 6-handicap golfer is working on his Chinese poker game, practicing for the next
World Series of Golf, and planning his next assault on the tournament circuit.
Justin Marchand: How does your business background help your approach to the game?
Tom Schneider: I think that poker needs to be more of a business process than most people make it. It needs to be approached with a plan. I developed a list that I had to go through before I played, almost like a pilot before he flies a plane. It's a big checklist, and if any of the items on the checklist are not right, I don't play.
When I do play, I want to maximize my opportunity of winning so that I do not have to play as often as other players. I believe that so many players say, "I have to play because that is how I make a living." I don't believe you have to just play, you have to win. As poker players, we have the luxury of playing when we want, so you have to play when your head is right.
JM: What were some of the hard lessons you learned from business that translate over to the felt?
TS: I think that protecting your cash is key. "Cash is king" is an old business term that is used all the time. You have to be conservative with your cash when you have a lot of it and when you have a little, because it's so hard to come by. Most people treat their cash so poorly and take such big risks with it. You cannot afford to do that.
JM: If you had to teach an MBA class about poker and the similarities between poker and high-stakes business, what would be included in the syllabus?
TS: In business and poker, you have to know who your customer is and how to treat your customer. So many people in poker treat their customers, the bad players, so badly. Also, knowing when to quit is important. I believe in poker and in business that quitting is more important than starting. So many people I know have an opportunity to quit a winner and end up a loser.
JM: Let's talk about your book,
I Won Too Much Money. What is the perspective of the book?
TS: My perspective is all about how to treat people and do the right things and make the right decisions. The book is a collection of my experiences in business and life, and what I've learned from these experiences. A lot of the lessons are related to making more money in business and poker.
JM: What lesson was the most painful for you to learn?
TS: To bet on myself. I had at one time accumulated a reasonable sum of money through business and poker, and I had people approach me to put them in games, games bigger than what I was playing. I put a lot of money into that type of situation rather than betting on myself. I think it is so important that you bet on your own talent. There are two things that happen if you do. One, you win. Two, if you don't succeed, you learn so much and at least pick up a lesson. But if you're betting on someone else, there really is no lesson to be learned.
JM: How did you develop as a well-rounded player, competent in all games?
TS: Number one, I tell everyone to read, read, read. If there is material out there, read it, whether it is good or bad. Once you become a good enough card player, you become your own expert. If you read and practice and play, and keep reading, you will be able to determine what is good and what is bad yourself, and people will be asking you questions, as opposed to you asking them questions. That is where I believe I've gotten, to the point where I am my own expert. If I want to calculate the probability of hands in badugi, I do it myself. I don't need to read a book to do it. Also, you never know where the bad players are going to be, so you ought to know every game. It's like learning how to fish for different kinds of fish. You need to go after whatever is biting that day.
JM: For many players today, what is the downfall of knowing how to play only hold'em?
TS: One of the downfalls is that I don't think it is the best game to maximize return. Let's say that you start with a 7-2 in hold'em and I start with two aces. We know that I'm a big favorite, but I'm not a monster favorite - not like a 10-to-1 or a 20-to-1 favorite. But, in certain games, you can get your money in very good. If you play against a reckless player in hold'em, he can hurt you pretty bad by taking smaller disadvantages and getting lucky. In some games, it's so much harder to come from behind. I just think there are so many good opportunities in other games.
JM: What skills do you think make you an exceptional poker player, and what concepts or areas are you attempting to improve as a player?
TS: I really have gotten away from going on tilt. I think the law of least tilt is really crucial. In past years, I would just give up. So many times you'll hear people say, when the dinner break is coming, "I don't want to go to dinner with just $500." I say to myself, I do want to go to dinner with just $500, because I'm still in. So many people think that if they don't have a big chip lead, they want to start a new tournament or play in the cash games. I've had friends and seen people who have come from nowhere. Your rush of cards will come, but you have to be there to get it. In one tournament I won, I had less than one big bet three times. I just kept saying, I'm not giving up. That has been my best attribute the last year, the willingness not to give up. I never said, let's try to get lucky.
JM: Over the course of your playing time, did you ever think of hanging it up as a player?
TS: Yes, I have, many times. This year, if I didn't do something significant at the WSOP, I was going to go back into business. In business, you can create a win-win, and in poker, it's always a win-lose situation. I get a little tired of that.
JM: What were the toughest times you ever encountered?
TS: There was a time when I was playing really high, I loaned a bunch of money, and I lost a ton of money playing gin. All of a sudden, this big bankroll I had was gone in a flash. I probably lost, in gin, more than $200,000 in three plays. With poker, I lost and loaned another $200,000. There is a chapter in my book, "Dumb, Fat and Happy, Especially Dumb," and it talks about when you get a little cash, you can really make some dumb decisions, and I did.
JM: So, when did you get into tournaments?
TS: My focus was cash games and big mixed games. However, a year and a half after I quit my job, the Indians signed a compact with the state of Arizona that the highest limit you could play was $75-$150. That put a wrench in my entire plan.
In regard to tournaments, back in 2002 I came in 36th in the main event and fourth in a pot-limit hold'em event. I probably played in only five events that year. I played only a few events each year at the
WSOP for four or five years. I primarily played the cash games.
Then, the cash games I play kind of dried up. In 2006 at the Rio, we had two $400-$800 games going every day. This year, there was a $200-$400; sometimes it was $300-$600, but it was rarely if ever full. There is not a lot of new money, and poker is not being introduced to new people who have a lot of money. You have to have new money coming in somewhere. It's like a pool. You have to refill the pool with water, because there is evaporation and leaks at the bottom. Now, there is just not a lot filling up the pool.
JM: You broke onto the TV poker scene with the
Reno World Poker Challenge event in 2006, where you finished third and won more than $250,000. What did you learn from that event?
TS: I learned that if you hang around long enough, people will give you their money, and someone will get tired and do something stupid and you'll be shocked.
I learned that twice. I had one hand that illustrates the point of someone giving up. We were down to 16 players. The blinds were $1,000-$2,000. I had A-3 offsuit in the small blind, so I just called and the big blind just checked. The flop was 7-3-3. I checked and he moved all in for $70,000 with just around $4,000 in the pot. I called, and he had 7-6 in his hand. When it was all over, he was looking at himself like he was the dumbest idiot in the world. The other funny thing was when we were down to eight or nine players; there was a guy there who was hyped up. He was hitting every hand. On a break, I heard him call his friends and say that he was going to be at a final table of the
World Poker Tour for sure, because he was second in chips. Right after the break, he was in the small blind with K-Q. He raised, the big blind reraised, and this guy moved all in. The big blind called with two kings, so he lost half his chips. The next hand, he had K-10, did virtually the same thing, and lost all of his chips. He looked like he was cleaning his gun in his garage and shot his best friend. He gave away his money.
I also learned that I really like playing tournaments, except for the final table. We were down to three players, I had $2 million in chips, and the other two players had about $1 million. I had one of the players all in with A-J against his A-3, and if I won, I'd have a 4-1 chip lead against a player I thought I could beat. We chopped that pot, and then I lost with A-K against two deuces. The final table, at least in these no-limit tournaments, is where the money is at, and it is so little poker. It's a crapshoot, and I think the structures could be improved.
JM: How so?
TS: I was the chip leader in one of the tournaments at the World Series, and had only 15 times the big blind. That is not right.
If you get to the point where the average chip count is always a 100-to-1 ratio compared to the blinds and take the clock completely out of the equation, it would be reasonable. So, when the average chip count goes to $30,000, the blinds go to $150-$300. When the average chip count goes to $40,000, the blinds will go to $200-$400.
Some tournaments could adopt a fast structure, a 25-to-1 ratio. It's totally different than how we do it now. For tournament directors, structure is a total guess. I know there are holes with this. For example, with the
World Poker Tour, they would have to be filming for a long time. But something should change.
JM: Let's talk about the
World Series. You emerged as the event's player of the year and walked away with two bracelets and three final tables. What stands out as the secret to your success?
TS: Looking back in the H.O.R.S.E. and stud events, I could have been knocked out so many times. It all goes back to that "never give up" attitude, and it rang so true. I was so short in both events. Even at the H.O.R.S.E. final table, I had $20,000 in chips and the blinds were $8,000-$16,000. So, when you think about that, even coming in fourth is pretty strong.
JM: During the
Series, you attributed a lot of your success to your wife, Julie.
TS: Yes. She is the most supportive woman I ever could have found. She understands poker and understands that there are ups and downs. She is by far my biggest critic and my biggest fan. What she does, which I really appreciate, is when I say, "I need to do this," she says, "OK, great; go out and get it." She never holds me back, but instead pushes me forward.
JM: So, what do you hope to still accomplish during your poker career?
TS: I'd like to have a million dollar payday. I've come within a few cards twice. I'm going to try to win the player of the year award at the
Series again next year, and this year make a run at the
Card Player Player of the Year award. Really, though, I just want to live a nice, happy life and do the things I want to do. I'm really a minimalist and really don't care about stuff. Over time, the one thing I learned is that I'm going to surround myself only with people who make me feel good. It's amazing if you do that how much more successful you can be in everything.
Tom Schneider Shares His Thoughts On Common Mixed-Game Mistakes
Hold'em: The biggest mistake is poor starting-hand requirements. I would rather have any other hand than A-X. I'm not talking about A-Q or A-K, but just about everything else. You just lose money with that hand.
Omaha Eight-or-Better: I play Omaha eight-or-better differently than many players who are perceived to be very good Omaha eight-or-better players. I have lower standards, especially in late position. Some people play it so tightly that you can tell what is in their hand. They always have an A-2 and you can take advantage of predictability.
Razz: Razz should be the one game that you could teach a 6-year-old how to play in five minutes. It should be the simplest game to play, but it's a game that people play so poorly. The mistakes that people make are starting with big upcards. You never should start with a big high card. However, if a player in late position has a 10 up and raises, and you have a king up and an A-2 down, you might peel one off because now you have a chance of catching one lower than a 10 and wouldn't be far behind.
Stud: This is my weakest game. If I had to make money playing stud, I would not be making money.
Stud Eight-or-Better: Starting with medium pairs like nines, tens, and jacks against a big field and starting with three unconnected babies that will play for the low only are big mistakes. You don't want to play for half of the pot in this game, and I see it all the time.
World Series of Golf Offers New Skins Game
Tom Schneider is not only an excellent poker player, but also a crazy good golfer. He took his money and his 6 handicap to the Primm Valley Golf Club near Las Vegas this June to participate in the first-annual
World Series of Golf. This unique format incorporates a no-limit poker betting format on the links. Players buy in for $10,000 and start with 10,000 in virtual chips. Each player puts an ante up on each hole, the players tee off, and the betting begins. After each round of shots, another betting round ensues. "Playing poker is not physical, it's mental, so when you add the physical element of golf, together it's tough," Schneider said. "I'm a 6 handicap and I topped a 9-iron shot because of all the TV cameras around. I never do that." In the end, Tom was one shot away from being in the final group for the
NBC broadcast, but look for him to be back in 2008.
