Follow The Money

Following on from last month’s article about data mining, we decided to ask a selection of players their thoughts on what has become a very sensitive issue. Each player was asked if they use online poker tracking tools and if they felt people should be allowed to data mine; is it good or bad for the game, does it change the game at all, and what was their opinion of sites taking action against it. This resulted in a surprisingly mixed reaction.

Brandon Schaefer
Of course I use poker trackers and download hands. It’s part of the online game and you’re at a big disadvantage if you don’t use them. I definitely think people should be allowed to keep track of hands. There are many reasons but the main reason, in my opinion, is that it’s nearly impossible to stop people from doing it. Why have an unenforceable rule?

I guess it’s bad for the game because it makes the games tougher but you could say the same about poker books, training sites, etc. The point isn’t whether trackers are good or bad, the point is that they are a key part of the game, for better or worse, as much as tells or whatever are part of the live game.

I think sites taking action against data mining is ridiculous. It’s just part of what makes online poker different from live poker and I don’t think it’s a bad thing at all.

Joe Elpayaa
I personally don’t have much experience with the programs. I’ve never downloaded or used them, although I am pretty familiar with their uses and capabilities.

With that being said, I have always held a morally opposed position to the use and exploitation of programs like this. I believe that it allows people and poker players of a much lesser quality and lacking true talent a chance to try and make money online.

But in reality I feel like these programs almost discourage development as a poker player. I mean obviously there are some distinct advantages to knowing certain specific statistics about any given unknown player, but I feel that as a successful poker player it’s crucial to be able to pick up on player tendencies, game flow and rhythm, remember old situations, and just an endless amount of attention paid to small details which ultimately determine how good you are.

There are obviously a few exceptions to this as always. For example I don’t think programs of this sort are all that helpful in terms of playing online tournaments. I believe they do help give some unknown information, but ultimately if you’re playing an online tournament and making all your decisions based on some statistics from a random as opposed to paying attention to what’s going on and absorbing all the possible information, it could easily lead to playing a very predictable style and most certainly not an optimal one.

On the other hand when it comes to online cash games, where players are playing infinitely more hands, and there are many more dynamics present, the use of data mining and tracking devices seems to present a pretty big advantage. You can ultimately study someone’s hand histories and find leaks to exploit, and basically the possibilities are endless.

I would definitely support the banning of all programs of this sort, mainly because I don’t use them. In the big picture I feel that they generalise poker players, taking away from the unique beauty of a game where everyone is kind of left to walk an unmarked path.

Arnaud Mattern
I do use trackers (only the ones that are allowed to be used on Pokerstars, that is Hold’Em Manager); I use the software mainly for personal work, like reviewing my hand histories, and working on them.

I never downloaded hands before, but I’m seriously considering buying most of some high stakes players hand histories, like Isildur1, or Phil Ivey, if they are available, just to learn from them. I don’t have a particular opinion on the subject, even though I agree that I would not be especially crazy about my hand histories being available on the web.

It’ s obviously good and bad at the same time, it’s just a matter of who is going to work harder, and those people are going to get all the money eventually, so it’s going to be harder and harder. All in all, those are pretty good tools if you want to improve, and if you are willing to spend some time studying.

Rory Rees Brennan
I use PokerTracker yes, but I’m not really a big data mining guy, like I wouldn’t be reviewing hands and looking for tendencies of my opponents. I guess I probably should since a lot of players are, but I just don’t.

I think it’s probably bad for the game, online. It just gives the pros even more of an edge on the recreational players since obviously they’d use all these tools less than the pros. Professionals go in with intricate information they know about bad players and can exploit their weaknesses even easier.

I think it’d be pretty cool and interesting if some sites took action against it. I’m not sure how they could, but I’m sure some technical people could find a way to ensure no hand histories or block all players’ statistics. Also if everyone could change their names daily it would be interesting as nobody would know who is who and maybe there’d be more action.

May Maceiras
I use poker trackers, Hold’em Manager specifically. I use it to analyze my own game and my opponents at Everest Poker, and I’m aware that I’m not using it to its full potential. The program is amazing! I just haven’t discovered yet how to work all its features. I would recommend one of those tools to any player, and I think nobody can really expect to be a big winning player without this software. I think they shouldn’t be forbidden. It’s just a way the player can keep track of things happening at the table. And it’s good for the game as it helps it to evolve, to be tougher — so, more skill and less luck.

What I don’t do is buy or download hands. Some people say that everything in poker is legal, but I do not agree and I prefer to play “fair”. If we compare this with live poker, poker trackers would be like a little notebook where the player writes his observations. In regards to data mining, there’s no way a player can keep track of all the hands his opponents are playing, unless he plays with them. That’s why I think data mining is just not fair.

A different thing is that players talk to each other, discuss hands, ask for advise, etc. And you can’t avoid that, actually I don’t think you should, it is good for the game as well. So, if when studying the game, one poker player friend of mine has some hands on the same opponent and we print the hand histories and discuss them together, well, I don’t really see that as cheating — players talk, they give advice to each other, we all are somebody’s teacher and somebody’s pupil. I don’t think sites must (or can, actually) control this. You must punish players for collusion, of course, but not for studying the game, and you can’t expect them to do that alone.

I really don’t know how sites could take action against data mining. I guess the first step could be to try to forbid the use of some sites that allow players to buy hands. And of course, don’t allow them to use HUD when they’re not at the table.

Marty Smyth
I don’t use tracking software, although I have purchased PokerTracker and Hold’Em Manager. I just find them difficult to use, and I don’t really play enough to have built up a lot of statistics on players. Also, I don’t play cash very often these days and I don’t think it’s as important for single or multi-table tournaments. I’m also very lazy which if I’m honest with myself, is the main reason I don’t use them.

I think overall it’s pretty bad for the game that sites allow them to be used, and I also feel it’s completely unfair. I know that everyone has the freedom to use data mining tools, but a lot of new/recreational players aren’t aware that they even exist and would probably be pretty horrified if they knew that this kind of stuff was being used against them.

Online poker has gotten really tough, and unless you’re a decent player, you don’t really stand a chance. I just think it would be fairer and ultimately more profitable for the sites if they took away this added advantage that the online grinders have. Good players will still make money, maybe not as much as before, and bad players will still lose money, but maybe they will lose it more slowly, giving them a bit more enjoyment, and it would also create more rake for the site.

The simplest way of putting a stop to data mining is to allow players to change their name as often as they wish, although I know there are drawbacks to this too. I don’t really know much about the technical side of it, but I imagine there must be ways of combating it without doing this.

Cristiano Blanco
I don’t use any online software, I just use SharkScope. I play mostly multi-table tournaments online, and all my cash games are mostly live. My personal opinion is that they should be banned, because poker is a game between people, not between software. I haven’t seen any websites doing anything against data mining, but I really hope they will do something in the near future. To give a suggestion I would have to be an expert of software and I am not, but I am sure there is a way to encrypt the information to hide it from others.

Dara O’Kearney
I use PokerTracker when I’m playing online. However, I don’t download hands or share databases with anyone else. Not because I see anything particularly wrong with it (essentially it’s analogous to asking a friend who has played with a player you have to play against live for the first time for information on his tendencies, which we nearly all do at some point or another) but I just don’t think it’s worth the hassle. I don’t really see a problem with people being allowed to, and in general I think any regulation that is almost impossible to enforce probably isn’t a good idea anyway.

As to whether it’s good or bad for the game, I think it’s good for the good (winning) players, bad for the losing players, and bad for the sites. The inevitable flow of money in the poker economy is from weaker players to stronger players. The weaker players will inevitably lose all the money they can afford to or are prepared to lose, and the beneficiaries are the winning players and the sites. The faster the losing players lose, the more of their money goes to the winning players, and the less that goes to the sites. That’s why I’m somewhat suspicious as to the motives of sites trying to regulate against this and other tools and trends that work to the advantage of the winning players. I wonder whether it’s really to “protect” weaker players, or to maximise their share of the money they will inevitably lose.

It certainly changes the game. Weak players lose money in the long run primarily because they repeatedly make the same mistakes, and the stronger players identify those mistakes and profit from them. Anything which helps a stronger player identify exploitable leaks in other player’s games, be it note taking, software trackers, tracking sites like SharkScope, OfficialPokerRankings, PokerTableRatings, or data mining speeds up the process by which the stronger players start to exploit the weaknesses of the weaker players.

Paul Marrow
Data mining is like all information gathering, it is only any benefit if you know how to utilise the knowledge you are harvesting. There is an old saying, “The world is full of information, which most people gather, then fail to understand what they possess.” This information will only ever be advantageous to the more understanding poker player, the rest will not have the intelligence to make any advancement from it. If data mining was not available, then the best poker players would just simply use old-fashioned ink and parchment.

As far as poker trackers are concerned, no, I don’t use them, again I rely on my memory and knowledge of the players I play against. I do have notes on any new or unusual players that I come across, but once I get to know these players I tend to discard any historicals and switch to memory and instinct. Downloading hands, I have never done, albeit it may help some. I feel it is like explaining my bad beat to you at the bar, whilst trying to ignore your yawns.

As far as being good/bad for the game, any extra tools used are only any good in the hands of a craftsman, and the only changes I would ever see it making to the game, would be to the pace of it — sites pretty much have this covered by timer clocks anyway.
My whole opinion basically is that information will only ever be advantageous to those who understand what they have, unfortunately/fortunately, whichever way you perceive it, there are those who read and understand, and there are those who read and never digest. The first category are the winners, the second are what we all play the game for.